Re: Waders / DrySuit - OR Not ???

Many discussions regarding.... Dry Suites, Wet Suits, Footwear, Launch Trousers, Jackets, Waders etc
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Steve
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Re: Re: Waders / DrySuit - OR Not ???

Post by Steve » 03 Feb 2018, 11:40

What a great thread of essential safety information. As I'm contemplating going out this month, I am very interested to try and mitigate some of the cold weather risks and this info is great. So many thanks guys!

Now to log onto Wetsuit Outlet to look at dry suits...

:cheers

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Re: Waders / DrySuit - OR Not ???

Post by pritch » 03 Feb 2018, 12:01

A really interesting and potentially life saving thread. After watching the Gurnard flood his incontinence pants i think i'm going to ditch the waders. :D
The one bad mistake i tend to make quite often is not attaching the kill cord. I will attach it when i set off but after stopping ,fishing ,moving from one end of the boat to the other and setting off again I've usually disconnected the kill cord and forgotten to attach it again.
I've never fallen off my sib but if i did, is it best to pull yourself up on the tubes or maybe head to the transom?
Thanks

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Re: Waders / DrySuit - OR Not ???

Post by The Gurnard » 03 Feb 2018, 12:32

pritch wrote: I've never fallen off my sib but if i did, is it best to pull yourself up on the tubes or maybe head to the transom?
Thanks
Hi pritch .. I have been keeping out of things since the video..but I hope the message came across..waders are safe on a boat..in the water ..but are deadly when you try to get back into a boat.

I have seen videos on forums of a pretty girl getting into a sib in her bathing costume. I tried that way too..and the first time when I was wearing swimming trunks..I also managed it that way.I did not look ass pretty as the girl did though.

However wearing all my gear.. the last time I tried getting into my boat ..I could not get in over the side by hauling myself.. I could not bend my knees enough in full clothing to get a foot onto the cavitation plate (its at water level remember).. and in fact ..I could not get myself into my own boat..end of story.

It was not a problem..as I was anchored 20 ft from the shore and I could stand on the bottom just. I also had a friend ready to assist me if required. I have recently made a step ladder ..think someone posted a photo of theirs recently ? Its DIY rope with rings ..cost nothing and easy to store.I have yet to try it for real..but I will do when I get my boat on the water.

So its a lot of words again to give the best answer I can.. try for yourself.. wader in water.. how to get back into your boat..try transmitting the handheld VHF in water with a buoyancy aid without crotch starps etc.etc etc .. It costs absolutely nothing except drying your clothes. Do it in warm water though..not in freezing cold water.

I hope to do a video in the sea soon. I had plans to do it today but my friend had to cancel. If there is an interest ..I will do it soon.

That way you will know the best way for you. Everyone is different. That is the simple message I'm trying to put across..nothing more ..nothing less. Prectise self rescue..kakaker dingys.. proffesionals all do it. I asked SIBers in Oban if they did it ..the answer was ................

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Re: Waders / DrySuit - OR Not ???

Post by DouglasW » 03 Feb 2018, 13:53

I agree with Chris, Steve and Pritch that there is some really useful information here so thanks to all who have contributed.

I am very grateful to Chris for tracking down the video by Prof Tipton who wrote the book I referred to and quoted above. I spent so much time tracking down the US coastguard data that I gave up on the video.

I do have a professional interest in this area. I have always enjoyed outdoor activities not just on sea but also on land: mountaineering, rock climbing, ice climbing, skiing, snowboarding and mountainbiking. As a young doctor I initially wanted to specialise in sports medicine like Prof Tipton and spent the first three years of my training working in a sports medicine clinic. As It happened I moved into another speciality but never lost my interest. Right up to retiring I continued to contribute lectures and practical courses in this area to medical students, trainee doctors, first responders and wilderness emergency medical technicians at the Universities of Glasgow, Edinburgh and Newcastle and outdoor centres. I have published water safety articles in international magazines. I have also delivered lectures and practicals to recreational participants at the Kendal Mountain Festival, The Scottish Canoe Association annual show and sea kayaking symposia in Skye, Ayrshire and Jersey.

As a young doctor working in accident and emergency medicine, one of my most distressing formative experiences was having to examine and pronounce dead two young men who had fallen out of their boat into a Scottish loch in summer. They were brought to hospital still wearing their waders and BAs.

Both the Gurnard and the US coastguard data have raised a very important point relating to training of boaters. The coastguard data shows you are far more likely to die from a small open motor boat than from a sailing boat. They have also shown you are far more likely to die (700 total deaths a year in the US, 100 to 150 per year in the UK) if you have not received any training. A big difference between the open motor boat community and the sailing and kayaking communities is that the latter two have a culture of practicing self rescues. Apart from the Gurnard and my work on the rescue boat at Troon Sailing Club, I have never met an open boater who has practiced self rescue.
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This photo shows myself and kayaking friends practicing self rescue in February in the Firth of Clyde with a water temperature of 8C.

Unlike sailors and kayakers, few open boaters are members of clubs where they can share experience and learn. That is why I feel that a forum such as this, which is particularly welcoming to newcomers, has such an important part to play in education about safety on the water. I feel honoured to be able to contribute here and we must all thank our hosts Martin and Paul.

I will echo what Gurnard says. Whatever you choose to wear, try a self rescue from the water in a safe place in the sea temperature that you normally go boating in. (With plenty of rescuers beside you.) Only then will you truly be able to make an informed decision about what to wear. We may all be experts behind a keyboard but once in cold water even expert swimmers like Duncan and Sharon in the video are in trouble.

Safe boating every one, especially you winter boaters! I have had some great days out November, December and January this year.

Douglas

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Re: Re: Waders / DrySuit - OR Not ???

Post by chris moody » 07 Feb 2018, 15:17

Interestingly this popped up in my Twitter feed so I retweeted it. It's a short video from the RNLI on Cold Water Shock https://twitter.com/ASLMarine/status/960881122770071552
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Re: Waders / DrySuit - OR Not ???

Post by DouglasW » 13 Feb 2018, 15:12

Hi Chris, thank you very much for posting the link to the RNLI video on cold shock. Perhaps awareness of the risks of falling into cold water is slowly permeating into the boating world.

I could not help but notice that you had also retweeted an RNLI link to throw bags entitled: Do you know what a throw bag is?. Thank you for this Chris.

I have never met a small motor boat owner with a throw bag in their boat, never mind one who knew what it was for or why you might carry one as part of your safety gear. In contrast all kayak shops sell throw bags and kayakers are encouraged to both carry them and know how to use them.
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This is mine, made by a company called Peak. I keep it under the deck lines of my kayak and I also have one in my F-RIB. In both the kayak and the F-Rib a throw bag also makes a very handy emergency tow line so it is a multifunctional piece of kit.

When would a throw bag be useful in a small open motor boat? Well two recent fatal accidents involving sub 5m RIBS in UK waters illustrate when they could have been used (though whether they would have altered the outcome in either case can not be said).

In the first accident the helmsman and one crew member fell out of the RIB during a high speed manoeuvre. It was calm and sunny but as it was the end of March the water was cold. The helmsman was not wearing a kill lanyard so the boat sped off. The second crew member was able to gain control of the boat but could not manoeuvre the boat close enough to the two people in the water to assist them back in the boat. They were both dead by the time help arrived. A throw line might have helped the second crew member reach and assist the two in the water back to the boat.

In the second incident, also on a calm sunny day at the end of March, so again the water was cold, the RIB helmsman fell out when crossing his own wake at speed. He was wearing a kill lanyard and the boat came to rest about 10m from him. Unfortunately he could not swim to the boat. His crew was unable to restart the engine as there was no other kill lanyard on board. Although another boat quickly arrived on the scene the helmsman was already dead. Again a throw bag may have allowed the crew to reach and help the helmsman.

So throw bags are another safety item that are widely used in a number of other water based activities that deserve consideration by owners of small open motor boats (as might having a spare kill lanyard taped to the outboard).

Douglas.

PS out of respect for the bereaved families of these two incidents, I have given only the briefest outline. The cases were both investigated by the MAIB and a few minutes with Google will find the reports.

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Re: Re: Waders / DrySuit - OR Not ???

Post by DouglasW » 13 Feb 2018, 15:41

None of the three people who died in the above two accidents were wearing dry suits. This again reinforces why wearing thermal protection if you go boating when the water is cold is as important as wearing a floation device and a kill lanyard.

Douglas

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Re: Re: Waders / DrySuit - OR Not ???

Post by chris moody » 13 Feb 2018, 16:30

Interestingly, learning how to use a throw line is not part of the syllabus for RYA powerboat Level 2, perhaps it should be.
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Re: Waders / DrySuit - OR Not ???

Post by rogerblack » 13 Feb 2018, 17:00

Thank you for your input guys, I am really learning a lot on here and although I consider myself only a fair weather boater, lots of your advice applies all year round.

I also saw the throwline Tweet doing the rounds and your post has also reminded me so I've just ordered one which I plan to keep in the car or motorhome even when I don't intend going boating myself. The reason for this is that we love the coast and spend a lot of time parked up or walking by the sea (and rivers & lakes), in fact several of our favourite campsites here in the UK and in France have pitches that are literally a stone's (or bag's!) throw from the water's edge.

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Re: Re: Waders / DrySuit - OR Not ???

Post by DouglasW » 13 Feb 2018, 17:03

Hi Chris,

I have never understood why British Canoeing is separate from the RYA, after all windsurfing and jetskis are both well situated in the RYA. As a result I am a member of both BC and RYA. However, this is one instance when a little crossover might be advantageous. The use of throw lines and tow lines are covered in the British Canoeing Foundation level Safety and Rescue Training course and also at the 3 Star skills level (Force 3 Sea State 3).

For the many visitors to this forum who are new to boating, I cannot recommend The RYA courses highly enough. They are a great way to gather properly reviewed knowledge and skills in a practical environment. When my daughters were younger they completed beginner and intermediate courses in both dinghy sailing and windsurfing. I was most impressed by the quality of instruction, the syllabus and the assessment process.

Yes Roger you make a very good point, a throw line can equally well be used from a bank, shore, pier, pontoon etc.

Douglas

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